Kate Berlant and Cole Escola Rage Against Their Phones

Kate Berlant tells jokes with a theatricality so intense that the bit becomes less about the punchline and more about watching her careen towards it. She’s honed that style through everything she does, like her must-see one-woman show Kate, the podcast she co-hosts with Jacqueline Novak, Poog, and all the movie and TV roles she’s made a habit of stealing outright. Her new HBO special, Parmesan, puts that style on its biggest stage yet. Ahead of its release, she got on the phone with her friend and fellow comedian Cole Escola, who knows just as well how much fun there is in refusing to let a bit die.

TUESDAY 1 PM AUGUST 18, 2026 L.A.

———

COLE ESCOLA: Hello, hello, hello!

KATE BERLANT: Cole! Such a better mood already.

ESCOLA: Kate, you are arched. Your back is arched.

BERLANT: I’m in an Airbnb with an arched back.

ESCOLA: Do Airbnbs make you as horny as hotel rooms?

BERLANT: They don’t make me horny at all. It’s very rare an Airbnb has the capacity to get me there.

ESCOLA: What is it about hotels? Is it what might’ve happened in there just moments before you were in there, or is it just—

BERLANT: Actually, almost the opposite. I find the detritus of the previous tenant is omnipresent in an Airbnb, whereas the hotel feels like this beacon of anonymity.

ESCOLA: I loved your special, by the way. They sent me a screener.

BERLANT: Oh my god. Cole, I’m so glad.

ESCOLA: I’m so glad you talk about the phone so much in the special, because it has become so hack to talk about the phone that no one wants to do it. But a) you found a way in that’s not hack, and b) we’re all still addicted to our phones, so we need to keep hearing about it.

BERLANT: It’s like the new talking about the weather. It’s a non-observation because it’s just the environment, but we are in the fight for our lives with it. A fight we are losing and will lose.

ESCOLA: We’ve lost already.

BERLANT: We’ve lost, and now it’s just rage, rage against the dying of the light. We’re trying to get back any moments we can before com-pletely donating them to oblivion.

ESCOLA: When do you think we lost?

BERLANT: That’s such a good question. Unfortunately, I am not smart enough to answer it.

ESCOLA: “Where were you when we lost the fight against our phones?”

BERLANT: Where was I? Signing up for CLEAR and accepting all cookies.

ESCOLA: [Laughs] I always accept cookies.

BERLANT: My younger partner was recently hovering over my shoulder and saw me accepting all cookies on the Cotton website, just to look at shirts. They were like, “What are you doing?” It’s just impatience. Ultimately, phone addiction is just impatience with reality and how painful it is to exist.

ESCOLA: I recently watched a video on the YouTube channel Howtown about this phone study with three separate control groups. One group—oh, I’ve lost you.

BERLANT: No, no, I’m here. I was just thinking about my career and my special. Weave it back into the special, Cole. Weave it back into the special.

ESCOLA: I will, I will, I will.

BERLANT: Okay, go.

ESCOLA: Emmy voters will love hearing this. They took three groups of people. One had to sit in silence for 30 minutes, one was allowed to scroll freely for 30 minutes, and one watched a video on their phones but they couldn’t scroll. They had to watch the whole video. Looking at memory, focus, and concentration, the people who did nothing and the people who watched the videos all the way through maintained their focus and their memories and were fine.

BERLANT: I can’t believe that. And yet I can.

ESCOLA: It’s the masturbating of impatience that’s actually bad for us, and I wish more people knew that, because I know it. I feel so privileged to have access to this kind of information most people will never know.

BERLANT: I know.

ESCOLA: They just don’t have it. I guess the first thing I wanted to talk about is where you see this country headed, because I don’t know what’s going to happen.

BERLANT: I think in 2027, it probably all ends. That’s what everyone says.

ESCOLA: It ends?

BERLANT: They say 2027 is when AI is going to achieve full cyborgization with DoorDash or whatever.

ESCOLA: Can it make us cum though? Probably.

BERLANT: In new ways. The cumming’s going to be crazy, and then it’s really over.

ESCOLA: As soon as AI can make us cum, we go. I want to get back to talking about the weather. I’m having a really hard time. I’m struggling with my small talk lately. I want to be the kind of person who is good at small talk. I want to have a meaningful exchange with a stranger in an elevator where it’s—

BERLANT: You struggle with that?

ESCOLA: I do.

BERLANT: I can do small talk with a stranger. It’s small talk with people I know that’s so painful.

ESCOLA: Because you sort of view a stranger as an audience member and you’re like, “I can perform for this stranger.” Also, I don’t want to give away any of my favorite lines from the special, but—

BERLANT: You can do one. We have to tease the reader to go stream it.

ESCOLA: It’s the part where you’re talking about how dads aren’t really parents.

BERLANT: I was hoping you’d say that.

ESCOLA: And the line is something like, “A father is a family friend. A dear, close, family friend.” Nothing has ever been more true. I have so many memories of going back and forth from the kitchen on holidays where the women were talking, and then going into the living room where the men were staring at the game. Not to say that’s not a legitimate form of bonding, but boy, was it cold in that living room.

BERLANT: Oh my god, absolutely. I was doing that bit in Ojai, and a man who was with his partner flipped me off, threw a glass of wine, and stormed out. Can you believe that? I had no idea when it was happening. I heard some kind of agitation, but it wasn’t disruptive enough to make me realize what was going on. I saw a man and a woman leave, but I just thought there’d been a medical emergency or they didn’t think I was funny, which are the same thing. Afterwards I was told he was flipping me off and stormed out, which made me think, “I guess this really is pushing buttons. I guess it isscathing commentary.”

ESCOLA: When I was born, my dad told my mom, “You take care of the kids till they’re teenagers, and I’ll take it from there.”

BERLANT: Yeah, when it’s time to get drunk or whatever. I would say I am as close with my dad as anyone can be, but then I see movies or I see a nice Christian family, and I think, “I guess people do have those really close…” What is closeness with a man? I don’t know.

ESCOLA: Does your dad text you back?

BERLANT: Yeah.

ESCOLA: Imagine a father ever saying, “Oh, hey, what happened with that situation?”

BERLANT: [Laughs] Exactly. It’s like, “Hey, how are you feeling about that now that you’re on the other end of it? Because I remember earlier you were feeling mad. I’m just wondering if you still feel that way or if it’s changed.”

ESCOLA: [Laughs] Well, this is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Imagine a father being like, “Wait, your friend, is she going to be okay? Because that breakup was pretty hard on her.” Or “Oh, by the way, your mom’s having a really hard time right now, so it’d be good if you maybe texted her, checked in with her.”

BERLANT: [Laughs] They do what they can.

ESCOLA: They do what they can with what they have!

BERLANT: Cole, what do you see for me? Will the special catapult me?

ESCOLA: One of my favorite things you’ve ever said is that your greatest fear is being referenced in future documentaries about comedy. You were never big, but all the big comedians are like, “We all took from Kate.” You ask any comedian, they know who Kate Berlant is.

BERLANT: Exactly. Maybe 12 years ago, I thought, “Oh no. What if there’s this gorgeous documentary put out when I’m maybe in my mid-eighties, and the youth are at that point going, ‘Who?’ And there’s these old sepia-tone photos of me with my eyes crossed.”

ESCOLA: I do think this special is a return to something very straight-forward in a way other comedians are going to be relieved and excited about. They’re going to be like, “I don’t have to put a spin on it. I don’t have to come up with a meta intro.” It’s a really chic tone.

BERLANT: That’s so nice. I wrote my play, Kate, during COVID, and was out in the world doing that for a couple of years, not doing any standup. It felt really daunting to go back, because I felt like, “I can’t just return to doing the same material I was doing in 2019.” I mean, we’re always who we are and we’re always operating within our language and our points of view, but I felt like I really couldn’t just go back to constantly talking about performing as I was performing, which is all I’ve ever known how to do. I felt this kind of sadness and terror because too much had changed to just pick up where I left off. I guess this is the first standup I’ve done where I talk about myself. I was always resisting autobiography in some way, but also nothing ever happened to me before 2019.

ESCOLA: 2019 was a hard year for you. That’s when you lost some of your passwords.

BERLANT: Yeah, and I couldn’t get into anything. I couldn’t get past the CAPTCHA. The bicycles all looked like stairs.

ESCOLA: [Laughs] It’s funny, having watched the special, to hear you say, “This is the first time I’ve ever talked about myself,” because all you really say about yourself is that you’re jerking off and scrolling in a really stupid and refreshing way. It’s not like, “And as someone who struggles with anxiety…” You’re not talking about your mental health, because that stuff, as we know, is not real. We’re finding more and more now that conditions are made up.

BERLANT: By the candy companies.

ESCOLA: Autism was started by Coca-Cola. We know this. I’ve read the paper.

BERLANT: And they’re killing Santa now.

ESCOLA: Did you believe in Santa?

BERLANT: Not only did I believe in Santa, I was the last person out of all the kids at school who still believed. I sat my parents down before I went to school and I said, “I’m the only believer left, and you have to tell me the truth because everyone says he’s not real.” And they were like, “He’s not real.” I started crying and said I wished I’d never asked.

ESCOLA: I remember staying up and catching my mom putting the presents under the tree and being so satisfied with myself. I thought, “You people think I’m an idiot. You really think I’m asleep?”

BERLANT: Let’s dwell on this a second, Cole, because this is a rich text: You and I both are big on Christmas.

ESCOLA: We are, even though I don’t like it. I hate the feeling I get on Christmas.

BERLANT: I’ve always been inspired that you travel every year on Christmas.

ESCOLA: My plan this year is to get on a plane on December 24th and fly west over the International Date Line. When I land, it’ll be December 26th and I will escape Christmas.

BERLANT: You’ll miss it.

ESCOLA: I won’t just miss it. I’ll escape it.

BERLANT: There’s a big studio film here, Cole. I’m hearing people at Sony right now licking their lips.

ESCOLA: They’re licking something, but it ain’t their lips. Are you on Instagram at the moment?

BERLANT: I’m in the middle of a break. I’m at the two-week mark.

ESCOLA: Oh, wow.

BERLANT: Actually I own a Light Phone. Shout out to [The] Light Phone. I’m planning on using it next week. I’m planning on going off for four days and just having that, so I’ll basically only be in contact with emergency numbers or whatever. I love being off, I can’t even tell you, but I do still have a Twitter account. I refuse to call it X because I’m too old. I’ve been off Instagram, and then on my phone I go, “Oh, X,” because I never really look at it. And then I watch car chase videos and people getting in fights. I always go to the dark. It’s people beating each other up in parking lots and then Karen videos.

ESCOLA: Karen gets what’s coming to her.

BERLANT: Then a horrifying body cam police video of them finding a house and there’s children unclothed with feces on the wall. I’m watching on my couch, one leg off the couch, one leg on the couch, hungry but can’t decide what to order. It really feels like, I don’t know. I guess I don’t have the language to describe what it feels like.

ESCOLA: Well, it feels powerless.

BERLANT: Yeah.

ESCOLA: All I have is YouTube.

BERLANT: You’re amazing.

ESCOLA: I recently blocked YouTube Shorts, even though the YouTube Shorts algorithm is so bad in a great way because it—

BERLANT: It’s not capturing you.

ESCOLA: It’s not capturing me.

BERLANT: Cole, I forgot this, and this is a sign from god. I need to be reminded that you don’t have Instagram. It’s unbelievable.

ESCOLA: Did I tell you someone on Instagram has been impersonating me and scamming people? Three separate people. One person from Brazil said they’d been talking to me and bought the rights to do my show—

BERLANT: Cole.

ESCOLA: And I was like, “Oh, no.”

BERLANT: This is when you know you’ve made it!

ESCOLA: Who knows how much money they got out of this guy?

BERLANT: Oh, no. How did you get in contact with this person?

ESCOLA: He showed up at the stage for it!

BERLANT: He was like, “It’s me.”

ESCOLA: And he was like, “Oh, hi. Yeah, it’s me. We’ve been talking.”

BERLANT: Oh, no.

ESCOLA: And I was like, “I don’t recognize you.” I mean, I just watched the color leave his face. He was so horrified. I don’t know what to do about it.

BERLANT: Fake Cole was like, “Yeah, go to CVS and just wire me 30K.”

ESCOLA: He said they did it on PayPal!

BERLANT: Fuck.

ESCOLA: Fuck. Should we talk about the podcast we almost didn’t start called Cuck Talk?

BERLANT: Oh, I forgot about that.

ESCOLA: Remember how we realized at one point that we’re both—

BERLANT: Two cucks.

ESCOLA: Two cucks. Maybe it’s because of phone addiction, but I love feeling jealous.

BERLANT: Oh my god.

ESCOLA: It’s like, “Ooh, what an emotion!”

BERLANT: Interesting. You’re watching someone else have better sex with their life.

ESCOLA: Or just leaning into the fact that it’s sort of like, what’s the worst that could happen? The worst thing I could believe about myself is that my partner loves having sex with someone else way more than they ever enjoyed it with me. I like playing through that fantasy and then realizing, “Oh, it didn’t kill me.” It’s even a little fun because it’s naughty.

BERLANT: Yeah. I remember once a therapist told me, “It’s okay to go to the darkest place.” That’s what you’re reminding me of.

ESCOLA: Are you currently in therapy?

BERLANT: I left her. I’ve been playing text tag, and we all know what that means. I’ve been in Jungian analysis for a few years now, which I really enjoy. That’s how you know it’s not working; you’re not supposed to enjoy it. But she’s great. I haven’t been in a few months and I need to circle back. She texted me and was like, “Hi, just checking in.” And I was literally bent over sobbing, and of course I was like, “Lynn, I can’t believe you’re texting right now. I’m literally sobbing, Lynn.”

ESCOLA: And she’s like, “Well, maybe next week.” Is there anything else we wanted to touch on? I mean, people have to watch the special.

BERLANT: Thank you.

ESCOLA: They’re going to lose their minds. What’s a good way to get people to watch it? I think a lot of what you said could potentially get you canceled.

BERLANT: But you have to watch the whole thing to realize how controversial it is.

ESCOLA: A lot of people we know have said similar things and their careers are over, so it’s really shocking to me that you—

BERLANT: I went there.

ESCOLA: You went there.

BERLANT: Watch if you dare.

———

Hair: Maranda Widlund using Oribe Hair Care at Home Agency.

Makeup: Robert Rumsey using Marc Jacobs Beauty at A-Frame Agency.

Nails: Michelle Tran.

Photography Assistant: David Miller.

Fashion Assistant: Hayley Francise.

Production Director: Alexandra Weiss.

Photo Producer: Georgia Ford.

On-set Production: Dara Danenberg.

Creative Strategist: Terrance O’Connor.

Location: The American Cement Building.

The post Kate Berlant and Cole Escola Rage Against Their Phones appeared first on Interview Magazine.