A Chaos- and Order-Muppet Ranking for Trumpworld and Beyond

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As we celebrate 30 years of Slate, one of the OG Slatesters, our own June Thomas, slid over into the Amicus Plus host chair and turned the tables on Dahlia Lithwick for a conversation about all things Muppets. The real Slateheads will understand this immediately, but for everyone else: This conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.

June Thomas: We have a very important piece of Slate lore to discuss. One of the most significant stories that Slate has published in its 30 years. I think about Chaos Muppets and Order Muppets maybe six times a day every single day of my life, but when I went to reread the piece, which is famously called Chaos Theory: A Unified Theory of Muppet Types, I was shocked to discover that it’s from 2012. I was sure that it was from the last century, perhaps a relic from the Microsoft era of Slate, but it was only 14 years ago.

Dahlia Lithwick: There are Slatesters who probably weren’t born when that piece came out. That math works. No, actually it took me 14 years to get brave enough to write something that utterly bonkers. I was two kids in, and at that point I was like, “I’m gonna write whatever I feel today.” And so, yes, Order Muppets and Chaos Muppets were born.

What was the reception to the article back when it was published?

It was by far the most-read thing I ever wrote. It had so many lives. The New York Times adapted it into a course they use to teach business. Every tentacle of it had so many iterations that were beyond my comprehension.

The greatest reception I had was, after many years of writing Supreme Court dispatches, I was summoned by the press office at the court, and they said two clerks were getting married and they wanted me to sign something. And I wondered, “Is it my work with the case about affirmative action? Is it my vitally important piece on Bush v. Gore?” And they were like, “No, it’s Chaos Muppet, Order Muppet.” I had to sign it for the bride and groom. So I now understand—this will be, by many orders of magnitude, the single most important piece I ever write.

Why do you think it resonates so deeply, profoundly, and consistently with everyone in the world?

I just think people love to think about themselves. I think, in a way, it’s a safe way to say, “Let’s talk about me.” But let’s be clear, we might be aging out of the Muppets as the central psychosexual determinant in our lives. I don’t know if the youngs today think about the Muppets the way I do. On my first day of law school, I sat down at a table with a bunch of strangers, and someone said, “Who’s your favorite Muppet?” And in a nanosecond, I said, “Sexually? The Count.” I didn’t even have to think about it, it was just amply clear. Muppets basically raised me, with a little assist from my parents, and so maybe for our age cohort, that was a defining thing. But I don’t know. It just might be stupid. And stupid is funny.

You and your husband are both Chaos Muppets. Is that how you self-identify, Chaos Muppet?

No. I think I outed myself in the piece as the false consciousness Muppet. I think I’m an Order Muppet, but really I’m a Chaos Muppet. It’s so funny, because we’re recording this in front of my producer, who will tell you, after years of association, that I am not an Order Muppet.
Now she’s just shaking her head in despair. I think I’m organized. I think I’m on time. I think I’m the kind of person who can wear a white T-shirt for 12 minutes and not spill tea down the front. I am a hurricane of insanity, but I think I’m deeply systematic, intellectual, and organized.

Everybody thinks they know what they are, and by the way, everybody wants to be a Chaos Muppet because the Order Muppets are all just huge eyebrows and fury. My kids are incredibly compliant. They have each 100 percent metabolized their Muppet type: I’ve got one Chaos and one Order. Never the twain shall meet.

One of the most fun aspects of Muppet Chaos Theory is figuring out who is what. Back in 2012, you said that most members of the Supreme Court are Order Muppets.

I think my complaint at the time was that there were way too many Order Muppets on the court, and I think I was actually celebrating the fact that with Justices Stephen Breyer and Antonin Scalia, and possibly with the addition of Justice Elena Kagan, you had a few chaos agents. I think we actually have far fewer chaos agents today. Admittedly, chaos comes in different flavors, and ending the Voting Rights Act is also an act of chaos agentry.

Who are the chaos justices?

It’s hard. I’m going to stick my neck out and say that I think Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is a little bit of a Chaos Muppet. I think Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who really rocked the world at the court when she started wearing big earrings at oral argument—that was chaos. Depending on how you want to define chaos, we might be able to say that Justice Clarence Thomas has entered the veil of chaos just by wanting to stir up trouble. But my complaint of the time was that there were way too many Order Muppets then, and there are way too many Order Muppets now. We just need a little more chaos at the court, and maybe a little just general aptitude for taking personality tests that determine your flaws and correcting them. Maybe that would be good.

It’s too late once they’re on the court. It should be part of the confirmation process, right?

I once did an interview … God, I’m not gonna remember when this was. But I did an interview where the interviewer asked me which Muppet every justice was, and I made the mistake of saying that Justice Kagan was Janice. Do you remember her, with the blond hair, and she’d be like, “Soooooo cooooool cooooool”? And I was like, “That’s totally Justice Kagan.” And Justice Kagan wrote to me and fought the hypo, insisting that she was so not Janice. I apologized.

Did she say who she thought she was?

I don’t think so. One wants to be quite careful to not misdiagnose the Muppet type of a justice of the Supreme Court.

I’m sorry to do this to you, Dahlia, but it’s time for a Trumpworld lightning round.

I’m ready.

Marco Rubio.

Order Muppet and, like, kind of the humorless kind.

Yeah. He wore the shoes, didn’t he? A Chaos Muppet would never wear the shoes.

Come on. There’s not a sight of three girl chickens near that guy just fawning. Never.

What about Heggers—Pete Hegseth?

Got to be. Maybe the quintessential Order Muppet quality is to be able to read the damn room, and Pete Hegseth has seemingly zero of that ability.

Speaking of guys who can read rooms, or maybe can’t, what about Director of the FBI Kash Patel?

Oh, God. I mean, he’s, like, a Chaos triple-decker. Seven-layer chaos. He is chaos all the way down. I’m thinking of, like, Animal on the drums, you know? He revels in it. He really thinks that that’s a good quality to have as a leader.

Anyone who gives out challenge coins is likely a Chaos Muppet.

I mean, maybe there are just no Order Muppets in the White House?

Let me suggest one: Susie Wiles.

Yes. Very good. Sort of under the radar.

What about our first lady, Melania Trump?

I don’t know if she’s even a Muppet. I don’t know. She might defy classification. I feel like every attempt I make to probe under the initial appearance, there’s just more initial appearance. I don’t know that I’ve got a deep psychosocial read on the first lady. What do you think?

I don’t know. When I think Chaos or Order Muppets, I like to think of the fur, you know? And the googly eyes. I just can’t see her in fur or googly eyes, so no—maybe not.  

This is very hard.

OK. The big guy, DJT.

He’s clearly a Chaos Muppet. He’s just id and total lack of impulse control. There’s not much to say there.

OK, we’re going to leave the gold leaf and dark Chaos Muppetry behind and head toward the light. What about Taylor Swift?

Order Muppet.

AOC?

Order Muppet. Wow, I’m being mean. I’m just picking teams now.

Hey, I’m an Order Muppet, so I don’t think it’s a slur to call someone an Order Muppet.

I’ve just gone through and said every major Republican actor that you’ve put forth is a Chaos Muppet, and now I’m … Let’s see. Let’s keep going.

Mayor Mamdani.

I think I’m going to say Order Muppet. I hate that Dems are all coding “Order.” I’m thinking—Bernie Sanders, Chaos Muppet, right?

Oh, sure. Sure.

There are Chaos Muppet Democrats, but you’re kind of giving me effective politicians.

OK, I can remedy that. I’m going to give you a twofer. Prince Harry, Meghan Markle.

You are the expert on them, but I think as a pair, they’re Chaos Muppets, don’t you?

Oh, absolutely. They’re sowing chaos through the Cotswolds at this very minute, in fact.

June, what are you?

So like most people who want to be cool, I would love to be a Chaos Muppet. But like most lesbians, I’m an Order Muppet. We’re a lanyard-wearing people, and I’m just another one. The article about the lesbian bar in Massachusetts was totally about the clash that can happen when a whole bunch of Order Muppets are confronted with a wildly chaotic Chaos Muppet.

You’re gonna get a lot of angry mail for this, June.

No, that’s exactly what it is. That’s just facts.

My last question for you, Dahlia, why do you think so many people misidentify themselves?

Name an Order Muppet that you like. And I mean, I’m just going to speak as a journalist right now. Even Kermit, who is a journalist, is not likable. So there’s not one. [Apologies here to the angry Order Muppets who have been yelling at us all week that this observation is not funny.]

But you have feelings for him. When he’s sitting out there on the pond, singing about the rainbow connection and strumming his banjo?

One wishes one could ask Jim Henson if the Order Muppets were actually a response to the moment he was in. Don’t forget, this is all produced in a time of great social chaos and upheaval, and Henson was a hippie and a Chaos Muppet. I wonder if the Order Muppets were much in the manner of Mark Carney and Jack Smith—the adults in the room. The heart wants what it wants, and so because of the time at which the Muppets were invented, I wonder if Henson thought people would be like, “You know, between Ernie and Bert, I’m going with Bert. As between the Swedish Chef and Blue Guy, I’m going with Blue Guy.”

Maybe we can’t appreciate the greatness of the Order Muppet until it’s too late. Maybe if this unbelievably batshit crazy interview can lift up the greatness of the Order Muppets in our society once again, as Jim Henson may have wanted, maybe, maybe our work here could be done.